What is Self - Government?

It is being able to determine the cause and effect of any given situation, and possessing the knowledge of your own behaviors so that you can control them.

If you teach a child how to govern his own behaviors, you will teach him how to change his heart.  This change of heart is more important that any behavior change.

December's Title Swap

Parenting with Love and Logic - Fosler Cline and Jim Fay
Educating For Human Greatness - Lynn Stoddard
Hold On to Your Kids (Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers) - Neufeld and Mate
Boys Adrift - Dr. Sax
Freedom Shift - Oliver DeMille

Happy Thanksgiving

Happy Thanksgiving from Carol. I am grateful for all of my book group friends!

What is Money???

So "on the eighth day" humans created money as an IOU for goods or services received.  Money gets its value at the moment of trade.  Money is simply a token, an essentially valueless marker for something that  theoretically, at one time, had value to someone.

But there are still plenty of people on the earth who never touch the stuff.  And despite out arrogance about the almighty dollar it isn't honored everywhere in the world.  Money is a "store of value" and a "means of exchange" only within the confines of a cultural agreement.

November's Title Swap

Financial Peace - Dave Ramsey
The Sidetracked Sisters' Happiness File - Pam Young and Peggy Jones
In Quest of the Abundant Life - Thomas S. Monson
Hold On to Your Kids - Gordon Neudeld
The Slave Dancer - Paula Fox
The Headgate (article) by Brian and Keri Tibbets (I have a copy if you would like me to send it to you.)
Boys Adrift - Dr. Sax
Linguistic Development through Poetry Memorization by Dr. Andrew Pudewa

October's Title Swap

Hold on to Your Kids, Why Parents Need to Matter More than Peers - Gordon Neufeld
The Last Child in the Wood - Richard Louv
The Color Code - Taylor Hartman
Myer-Briggs -- Personality Test
Enneagram  -- Personality Test
The ABC Herbal - Steven Horne
Raising Up a Family to the Lord - Gene R. Cook

The Green-Eyed Monster!

"O, beware, my lord, of jealousy:
It is the green-eyed monster which doth
Mock the meat it feeds on."

A True Gentleman

"....no man who was not a true gentleman at heart, ever was, since the world began, a true gentleman in manner.  No varnish can hide he grain of the wood; and that the more varnish you put on, the more the grain will express itself."

The Task of the Modern Educator

"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts.  The right defence against false sentiments is to inculcate with just sentiments.  By starving the sensibility of our pupils we only make them easier prey to the propagandist when he comes.  For famished nature will be avenged and a hard heart is no infallible protection against a soft head."

August's Title Swap

Revealed Education Principles - Jack Monnett
Financial Peace Jr. - Dave Ramsey  (daveramsey.com)
And They Were Not Ashamed - Laura Brotherson
Quick to Observe - Elder Bednar's Talk
The Weight of Glory - C.S. Lewis
The Great Divorce - C.S. Lewis

Jefferson Emphasized the Role of Strong Local Self-Government

Thomas Jefferson probably said it better than anyone when he wrote:

"The way to have a good and safe government is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly the functions he is competent to perform best.
Let the national government be entrusted with the defense of the nation and its foreign and federal relations;
The State governments with the civil rights, laws, police, and administration of what concerns the State generally;
The counties with the local concerns  of the counties, and each ward (township) direct the interests within itself. 
It is by dividing and subdividing these republics, from the great national one down through all its subordination, until it ends in the administration of every man's farm by himself; by placing under every one what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best.

"What has destroyed liberty and the rights of man in every government which has ever existed under the sun?  The generalizing and concentrating all cares and powers into one body, not matter whether of the autocrats of Russia or France, or the aristocrat of a Venetian senate."

July's Title Swap

Wee Sing America by Pamela Beall and Suan Nipp  - CD
A Patriot's Handbook by Caroline Kennedy  - CD
Principles of Liberty by National Center for Constitutional Studies - DVD
Latin for Children by Classical Academic Press  -  CD and DVD
The Declaration of Independence, The Words that Made America by Sam Fink
The Gettysburg Address, Inscribed and Illustrated by Sam Fink
Take Your Hat Off When the Flag Goes By by Jeanie Brady

That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen

At one point, Bastiat offers this little question, "Which of the two is the most exacting parasite, the merchant or the official?" He then goes on to show that government involvement always costs more. He makes a case for keeping charities private and for the government to take a hands off approach to commerce. He demonstrates that frugality benefits a community more financially in the long run. This book is a fantastic read for every American. It can help us evaluate economic policies of our government.

My takeaway from this book: We must always look for the hidden result of any public or economic policy. We must use wisdom in government, just as we utilize wisdom in our private decisions. We must look at long term results not just short term benefits.

What Makes a Economist Good?

I sometimes wonder what type of economist is advising our country's leaders.  Especially when we take into account the following statement that was written in Things that are Seen and Things that are not Seen nearly 200 years ago by M. Frederic Bastiat.

" ...the bad economist pursues a small present good, which will be followed by a great evil to come, while the true economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil........When, therefore, a man absorbed in the effect which is seen, has not yet learned to discern those which are not seen, he gives way to fatal habits, not only by inclination, but by calculation."

Bastiat goes on to state that their are only two ways to learn - experience and foresight.  Because we are not choosing to use good judgement and foresight by planing appropriately on a national level, I am afraid that we will have to learn the lessons more brutally; by experiences.  All I can do is plan within my own family and community for the upcoming events caused by the bad economic choices we have made nationally.

June's Title Swap

Seed to Seed by Suzanne Ashworth
Teach Your Children Well by Christine Allison
Stolen Innocence by Elissa Wall
Motherstyles by Janet Penley
The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss
The Remarkable Soul of a Woman by Dieter F. Uchtdorf
The Actor and the Housewife by Shannon Hale
Rework by Jason Fried

The Symbolism of Uncle Tom's Cabin

I have found it fascinating that so many people are upset and very critical about Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe.  When this was written, this work infuriated the South because it demonized the practice of slavery.  The book quickly became a best seller and helped catalyzed the emotions that erupted into the Civil war.  When President Lincoln finally met the author, he stated, "So this is the little lady who started this big war." 

So many people attacked the author, claiming that it was not authentic and that she had fabricated the issues of slavery, that Stowe wrote another book called The Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin two years latter.  In this work she defends each main character and their views with actually letters and documents of the time.  I found reading these explanations to be quite fascinating and recommend any one who questions the author's authenticity, to do so.

I believe that although the author may not have been completely striped of all her own prejudices herself, in this great work she was attempting to humanize the blacks who were treated like animals or property.  She attempts to have you feel their incredible grief and sorrow.  Stowe does a wonderful job exploring all the types and forms of slavery that may have existed.

I applaud Stowe's solution that she suggests through the character George Shelby.  He created not only papers that made all of his slaves legally freeman, but also he gave them the opportunity to become educated and earn an honest living on his farm.  Although this did not bring instant equality and stop prejudices, it's a start.  All men need a chance to better themselves through education and just compensation for their hard work.

I hope that any one who reads this book will follow George Shelby's admonition.  That we should, "Think of freedom, every time you see UNCLE TOM'S CABIN; and let it be a memorial to put you in mind to follow in his (Tom's) steps, and be as honest and faithful and Christian as he was."

May's Title Swap

The Giver by Lois Lowry
Take the Risk by Ben Carson
Gifted Hands, the Ben Carson Story DVD
The Constitution by Sam Fink
The Declaration of Idependence by Sam Fink
Teach Your Children Well by Chrine Allison
Change Your Questions, Change Your Life by Wendy Watson Nelson
3 Cups of Tea by Greg Mortenson
Abraham Lincoln by Jim Weiss CD
Absent in the Spring by Agatha Christe
Roughin it Easy by Dian Thomas
Boys Should be Boys by Meg Meeker

In praise of Shakespeare

Even though reading Shakespeare can feel like a lot of work, it is an enriching experience. Midsummer Night’s Dream isn’t my favorite play of his, but it does offer some interesting topics for discussion. One of the things I noticed was that there are apparently no mothers in this play. This may explain why everyone runs around like fools. Also, mothers probably would have something to say about death as a punishment for their daughter refusing to marry. So that would create problems for this plot if Mom was around.

Teenage love can be a crushing weight, causing people to run after another. Betrayal of friends also happens sometimes in the name of “love”. I have seen adults do some pretty crazy things as well, when they thought they were in love. These themes are explored in Midsummer Night’s Dream.

During book group, part of our discussion was about the metaphor of living life in a dream state, rather than living to the fullest. Who among us wants to come to the end of our life only to discover that we didn’t live it to the fullest? This gave me the opportunity to reevaluate some of the choices I am making. At this point, I am not making any major changes. Just paying a bit more attention and trying to make the better choice.

Shakespeare’s writing is timeless. The language can be a struggle. However, I think there is a benefit to this. First, it helps us recognize that this story is iconic. These stories have endured for a long time, and this is a testament to their ability to teach important life lessons. Shakespeare actually made up some of the words he used, creating new words that became accepted as their popularity grew. He also includes in his writing a stunning variety of insults. Discovering the gems hidden in his language is worth the work every time.

Reason and Love

"And yet, to say the truth, reason and love keep little company together nowadays."

April's Title Swap

The Backyard Homestead by Carleen Madigan
The Headgates(New TJEd article - let me know if you would like a copy)
The Blind Side - DVD
The Complete Cheapskate by Mary Hunt
Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society by Mary Ann Shaffer
Dear John by Nicholas Sparks
And They Were Not Ashamed by Laura Brotherson
Wife Dressing by Anne Fogarty

Learn With Me

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At Learn With Me, our goal is to provide home educators and teachers resources that bring life and depth to a student's study of reading and writing. Our feature product is Read With Me. This book contains the core principles of reading with purpose; we call this strategic reading. These strategies are taught through activities, writing prompts, unique ideas, literary terms and much more. Read With Me is a must have resource for any language arts educator.

Our line of literature study guides are crafted to elicit discussion, foster literary analysis and also inspire change. These are available in book form or digital download.

Title Swap for March

The Glass Castle: A Memoir by Jeannette Walls
The Parenting Breakthrough by Merrilee Boyack
Financial Peace by Dave Ramsey
The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey
Financial University by Dave Ramsey
10 Essential Foods by Lalitha Thomas
Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Marc Weissbluth
Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane by Kate DiCamilo
No More Double Messages: What Every Parent Should Know about Teenage Dating (Talk on CD) by JeaNette Smith
Five Love Languages by Dr. Gary Chapman
Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters by Meg Meeker
http://teachingselfgovernment.com/

Good People

"Do you think there ought to be fifteen varieties of good people?....
There ain't fifteen. There ain't two. There's one kind. And when I meet it, I respect it. It is not praying nor preaching that has ever caught me and make me ashamed of myself, but one or two people I have known that never said a superior word to me. They thought more of me than I deserved, and that made me behave better than I naturally wanted to."

Some thoughts on Understanding the Times

As I read Understanding the Times, I came to a better understanding of some underlying beliefs that are guiding other people's choices. I have on occasion been quite perplexed by the choices people make, but reading about these worldviews helped me come to a better understanding of the beliefs driving those choices.

I was actually appalled by some aspects of the viewpoints, and I continue to be surprised that thinking people hold some of these beliefs. I wonder how many of these beliefs are held because these ideas are unexamined and accepted only on the surface. Reading this book strengthened my belief that homeschooling is the best for my children I can see that many of my opinions as a young person were confused by being taught alternate beliefs in school. Even when I knew I didn't agree, it was often difficult to articulate why. I can see that worldviews in direct opposition to my own are being taught to children every day in school. I can think of examples from my own educational experience.

There was one specific idea in the conclusion of the text that I felt was worth some more in-depth concentration. It had some interesting ideas about the different responsibilities of the state, church and family. The authors state that the state is responsible for justice, the church for God's love and grace on the earth, and the family for God's creativity and community. I mostly agree with these ideas, although I think this is a simplification. I also think the family and the church's roles are somewhat different and that the church is also about community. I enjoyed the following quote. "Because government is an institution of justice, not of grace, community, or creativity, it should not interfere with freedom of religion, attempt to dispense grace through tax-funded handouts, control family size, interfere in the raising of children (including their education), or control the economy." If we agree that government is an institution of justice, it would seem that our government has wandered far afield from its duties. I think that taking these ideas and comparing them to doctrinal sources is important. I turned to Doctrine and Covenants 134 to read again what has been said there about governments. I think that verse two is particularly pertinent to the discussion, so I will quote it here. "We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life." I think that this can help guide our decisions about what we vote for and who we choose to represent us. There is a wealth of information in this chapter of the Doctrine and Covenants, and I think it is a resource that I need to turn to and reread from time to time.

My thoughts are still percolating on the different worldviews presented in this book. I think it is a good text for understanding other people, and also for articulating my own worldview. I feel that it was beneficial to read this book as an adult, and I also think that teenagers might benefit as well.

February's Title Swap

Fascinating Womanhood - Helen Andelin
Our Home - C. E. Sargent
The Giver - Lois Lowry

Absolute Truths

When we try to understand the way people think today, it can be very confusing. There are so many opinions that we can find ourselves debating around in circles. Some would demand that we have such high levels of tolerance for the cultural relativism of every person, that they insist that no one can state any absolute truth. But as offensive as this may be, "Absolute Truths" do exist. They always have and always will, no matter what is popular today. The following is a list of some of these truths:

* God Exists. He created the world and each of us.
* The God Head consists of 3 separate beings. (Not the Trinity)
* We have a soul. We will be resurrected, judged and have consequences.
* Families are ordained of God. (1 man married to 1 woman raising children)
* Free agency of Man - Free will
* Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the World
* Modern revelation still occurs today.
* Prophets are still on this Earth.

The Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers

As I read each one of the stories in the book, The Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers by Patrick Kavanaugh, I was touched with how every composer had to overcome his own unique set of challenges to achieve greatness. The one that touched me the most was the story of Anton Bruckner. I was already familiar with many of the great composers, but didn’t know anything about Anton Bruckner. Although all of the composers featured in this book shared various degrees of religious faith in God, I felt that Bruckner understood better than any other composer that the only one he ultimately answers to is God. He was quoted as saying, “Sometime I will have to give an account of myself. How would the Father in Heaven judge me if I followed others and not Him?”

How easy it is to listen to all the voices that pull us in different directions away from what God wants us to hear. Bruckner is a superb example of someone who did not become what others wanted him to be. “He listened to the ‘voice from within’ and looked to God, ‘whose praises he sang in every note of his music.’ Bruckner had a strong ‘conviction that only he who believes and trusts finds true peace and the glory of the Lord.’”

Bruckner also set a great example of perseverance. He experienced decades of hostility from various people in the music community. Sometimes people in the audience would walk out when his symphonies were performed. Another time a director told him to quit composing and threw his symphonies in a trash can. One critic called Bruckner “a fool and a half” and others criticized his music as being “insatiable rhetoric” and “unsingable.” A work that had been accepted by the Vienna Philharmonic was rejected after the first rehearsal. Bruckner found himself the enemy of a famous music critic that gave such malevolent reviews that it became nearly impossible to have his works performed for over a decade, “yet Bruckner continued to compose, believing that this talent was a trust given by God.”

Although Bruckner was not only unappreciated and attacked from many fronts for what he created, he did not attack in kind. “Instead, he continued to compose work after work, believing that his efforts would eventually be blessed...He so firmly believed that God wanted him to compose that he could neither desist nor waste time in meaningless verbal battles with his detractors.”

How often do we get caught up in feeling discouraged, overwhelmed or depleted when our initial or even ongoing attempts to do what we feel or know is right, isn’t met with the outcome or approval from others that we had hoped for? Do we just give up? Stop trying? Change our course of direction so that the world will give us their stamp of approval? It takes a lot of courage, faith and conviction to swim against the stream.

In time, the world came to love Bruckner’s great works and even to scorn those who disagreed. Bruckner never retaliated against his foes. He patiently endured the insults and attempts to stop his work and quietly continued to go on fulfilling his life’s mission. He never lost his faith in God. Anton Bruckner’s music is a lasting legacy of enduring faith, perseverance and humility. I will never listen to his music the same way again.

January's Title Swap

The Making of George Washington by William H Wilbur
Teach the Children by Neil Flinders
azurestandard.com Kim's resource for seeds, herbs, and bulk
The Little House Cook book by Garth Williams
Outliers: The Story of Success by Malcolm Gladwell
The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann D. Wyss
The Fourth Turning by Strauss and Howe
Thomas Jefferson Education for Teens by DeMille and Brooks
Making the Best of the Basics, Family Preparedness Handbook by James Talmage Stevens

Some Needed Provisions for Survial During a Nuclear Holocaust

Cash (became worthless)
Napkins
Canned milk
Running Water
Geiger Counter
Prescriptions for drugs (were worthless)
Short-wave radio
Gasoline
Underground shelter
Oil
Canned meat (freezer meat thawed out)
Candles
Mason jars
Kerosene lamps
Canning supplies
Kerosene
Pickling Salt
Flashlights
Charcoal
Matches
Insulin and syringes (needed refrigeration)
Batteries
Flour (to bake bread)
Lighter fluid
Bicycles (and replacement parts
2 gallon pot to cook over a fire
Tires
Shovel
Coffee
Pitchfork, edger, scythe
Sugar
Wheelbarrow
Dog food
Butter
Cat food
Nylons
Hens for eggs and meat
Portable radio
Pigs
Flint
Oranges and fruit in orchards
First Aid Kits
Ax
Soap
Fishing Supplies
Toilet Paper
Evaporated milk
Rifles, shotguns, pistols
Rubber Nipples
Ammunition
Safety pins, sewing needles, thread
Spark plugs
Car batteries
30 weight oil
Toothpaste
Vulcanizing kits
Honey (liquid gold)
Beeswax
Vaccines of all kinds
Soap powder
Shoes Old
Eyeglasses
Groceries Old
time sewing machine (foot propelled)
Alcohol
Pot bellied stove
Mule
Lawn roller

How Life Changed After "The Day"

Need to be informed re fallout (obtain pamphlets and read before disaster happens)
No phones
No electricity
No running water
No gas
No Western Union
No trucks
No mail service
No Traveler’s checks
No Government Savings Bonds
No banks
No gas stations
No stores
Need your own strength in a crisis
Dig latrines
Be physically fit to walk/manual labor
Carry a gun at all times
Face reality and cope with it
Neighbors put their resources together and divide and share everything
Stockpiles should be in the country and not in the big cities (as big cities were demolished)
Plant crops
Elderly and sick died
Elderly had difficulty accepting change
Bury the dead quickly
Rule of war: economy of effort and forces
Connected water pipes from artesian well which connected neighbors together
Watched out for each other
Someone has to assume leadership role and gives orders to the others (and it wasn’t necessarily elected community leaders)
Stop feeling sorry for yourself - there are two choices: have to start over or die
Use car battery to power short-wave radio
In everything they did, now, was with an eye for the future
Be a woman of courage
Survival of the fittest and make it a conscious decision
Small dog can be used as a foot warmer in bed
6 inch hunting knife can be used as a razor (sharpened on a whetstone and belt)
Missed music from phonograph and radio
Missed cigarettes
Used whiskey for anesthesia and for trading
Missed coffee (most valuable)
People lost weight and were more fit
No Income Tax
No alimony
No bills/debts/house payments
Barter system (Ex: Gas traded for MD house-calls)
Guard the food supply
Chop wood
Youth take on adult responsibilities
Rotate nights to guard animals
Everyone worked hard all day just to survive and eat - depended on each other
Had assignments (that were taken very seriously)
Finding more wood became more difficult to obtain/transport
All entertainment, amusements, escapes and information again centered on the library
(Because all the other distractions had been removed)
Reading classics was providing a superior education
It required a holocaust to make the librarian’s life worth living - she became an important person
The local park is where goods were traded and notices were posted
This disaster equalized blacks and whites
Cadillac traded for only 2 bike tires and a bike pump
Outdoor, interdenominational Easter Services
Hair and clothing fashions didn’t matter
Survivors didn’t know who won the war and they had differing opinions - topic of discussion
Abandoned cars appeared as stripped, unburied carcasses of giant beetles
No garbage collection
Some people (in Pistolville) defecated and urinated in public
No mongrel dogs or feral cats to be found (they had been eaten)
In four months time, Pistolville had regressed 4000 years
Even pets were killed and eaten
“The rules were off”
The past (life before “The Day”) seemed more removed or distant than actual amount of time that had passed
Everything was remembered as happening “before” or “after” “The Day”
More greed
Radium burns from “hot” looted jewelry
Highwaymen
Unkempt yards quickly turned into jungles of overgrowth
Bubba Offenhaus was Deputy Director of Civil Defense and Undertaker but all the requests and problems frightened him. He did not lead the community. He hid in his home.
Mayor barricaded himself in his home - besieged by imaginary and irrational fears.
Authority had disintegrated
Chief of Police dead and two other police abandoned their posts
No Fire and Sanitation Departments
Martial Law came into effect
Randy Bragg found leadership to be a lonely experience
Everyone had to be careful. A simple fracture could be compound disaster
Make whiskey from homegrown corn and sugar cane
Make own distillery (Use lawn roller, a mule and crush corn and cane on cement slabs. Copper tubing from cars)
Nature is just and even merciful. By natural selection, nature will attempt to undo what man has done.
Helen loses touch with reality and temporarily believes her fantasy that her brother-in-law is her deceased husband
Read book about edible palms, grasses, and herbs from library to find other food sources.
Without communications, the simplest mechanical failure could turn into a nightmare and disaster
Randy didn’t sleep well unless he knew all was well in his perimeter
Made a homemade spear
North American civilization returned to the Neolithic Age
A boy grows up fast or doesn’t grow up at all
The survivors in the contaminated zone wondered if the rest of America had forgot them
Dan Gunn (the town doctor) was attacked by highwaymen; beaten up, lost his car, glasses and medical bag with supplies
Traffic was no longer a problem
Some domestic dogs turned into wolves
There were human jackals for every human disaster
Typhoid was the unwelcome, evil sister of any disaster in which the water supply was destroyed or polluted and normal disposal of human waste difficult or impossible.
Shoes wore out and didn’t have replacements (children’s feet kept growing)
Armadillo’s only enemy was the automobile - now they were multiplying (due to lack of cars)
Lip Radio: once spoken at the library, the news would spread through Fort Repose
After “The Day” people were willing to wake up before dawn and walk three miles on empty stomachs to watch the sun come up and attend an interdenominational Easter service
Under Martial Law can make up own rules and take the law into their own hands
Randy and Lib were married the day after they decided to do it (no preparation time)
Marriages and Births were recorded and records kept at the local library
Highwaymen attacked again - killed the parents and the children escaped to aunt’s home
Three Highwaymen were gunned down by Randy and his helpers
One Highwayman was hung at the park to deter others from plundering the people
Community members enlisted in the Fort Repose Provisional Company (Bragg’s Troop)
Fishing pliers, darning needles, metal hair clips six-pound nylon line sterilized in boiling water would have to become primitive surgical instruments
Unable to replace blown-out tube for short-wave radio - all contact with outside world is cut off
Within 5 months, gasoline vanished entirely
Homemade moonshine (made from corn and sugarcane) made excellent bug repellent, liniment and preoperative skin antiseptic
Books from the library taught Dan Gunn (doctor) how to do hypnotism to be used as anesthesia
Ran out of candles and kerosene for their lamps, burned furnace oil in lamps
Dan operated on Ben on a billiard table using hypnosis and primitive surgical tools
After eight months, ran out of salt (which was used for medical saline solutions, brushing teeth, pickling foods and hides, etc)
In the heat of August, fish stopped biting (had to change how they fished)
Found a hidden source of natural salt and crabs near the salty beach (from a journal kept by Randy’s grandfather)
Responsibility for teaching the children became the parent’s responsibility
Home library room became the schoolroom
Nine months after “The Day” the first post-Day baby was born bright and healthy signifying that life would go on
Military leaflets used as toilet paper, and paper money (10 leaflets would buy an egg, 50 a chicken)
American became at least a 2nd Class Power, if not 3rd Class after the nuclear holocaust
About a year after “The Day” Randy and his family and closest neighbors had no desire to leave their community and start over somewhere else